Joey Williams is the President of the Detroit Handball Club. In Part 1 of our two part conversation we discuss the trials and tribulations of his efforts to start the Detroit Club. For the most part he’s been very successful getting the Detroit Club started in the middle of a pandemic, no less.
Here are some links related to our discussion
Joey’s 2016 experience at a European GK Camp: Link
Joey’s 2019 experience at the ISI Sports Academy in Denmark: Link
2019 Commentary which discussed the hurdles of starting a new club: Link
Could a New Distribution of Olympic Qualification Slots be Coming?
Last Friday, (21 May 2021), European Handball Federation (EHF) President Michael Wiederer gave a wide ranging interview with the Mannhiemer Morgen, a newspaper in Germany. For the most part the interview covered topics directly pertaining to the pandemic and EHF competitions. However, I bulls-eyed in on a couple of questions pertaining to handball’s place on the world stage:
Mannheimer Morgen: You are the representative of European handball interests, recently more and more nations like Argentina, Brazil and Egypt have drawn attention to themselves. How do you rate that?
Wiederer: This development is important for the sport, especially for the international market value of handball. Because as long as we are a sport with a European character, the marketing opportunities remain limited. Many international corporations are not based in Europe. I therefore welcome developments on the other continents. It was a very important step to expand the World Cup to 32 teams.
Mannheimer Morgen: Because handball is so European, the Olympic status is discussed again and again. Are you concerned about this?
Wiederer: We don’t have to worry about this status any more or less than many other sports. We aroused great interest at the Olympic Games in Rio five years ago. But this is also about internationalization. The world association is trying to get more starting places for other continents, that would be at the expense of Europe. As you can see, this is also about a balance, about different interests in terms of the product and a possible narrowing to a few markets.
Great IHF Support, but no Olympic Ticket
What makes Wiederer’s response newsworthy is that to the best of my knowledge it was the first time in print that I’ve seen it publicly acknowledged that the IHF was considering a redistribution of Olympic slots and the logical impact that such a redistribution would have on European nations.
The IHF, of course, has made no secret of its desires to develop new markets in the U.S. and China. Steps taken to help the U.S. include:
The U.S. Development Project, headed by former EHF President, Jean Brihault that has provided some grant funding for the U.S.
The dissolution of the Pan American Team Handball Federation (PATHF) into two new confederations, the North American & Caribbean Handball Confederation (NACHC) and the South & Central American Handball Confederation (SCAHC).
Selecting the U.S. as the NACHC representative to the 2021 Men’s Handball World Championships when a competition couldn’t be held due to the COVID-19 pandemic.
But, while the PATHF split into the NACHC and SCAHC resulted in separate new qualification paths for the World Championships there has been so similar change announced regarding Olympic qualification. Both the NACHC and SCAHC were still grouped together for qualification via the 2019 PANAM Games.
And, anyone who follows handball in Pan America knows that presently it’s very unlikely that a NACHC nation will qualify for the Olympics via the PANAM Games. Any NACHC Men’s team hoping to qualify would likely have to beat both Brazil and Argentina, two nations that would likely be double digit favorites against any NACHC nation. For the women, it would mean beating Brazil and right now staying within 10 goals would be a major accomplishment for any NACHC women’s team. For reference Brazil beat the USA 34-9 in a 2019 semifinal.
But, if the NACHC were to be given its own slot? Well, that changes the equation entirely. Cuba would instantly become the NACHC favorite for both Men’s and Women’s Olympic Qualification, but the U.S. wouldn’t be far behind. And, every other NACHC nation that has been playing handball for awhile could also envision a legitimate shot at Olympic qualification.
How a Separate Olympic Qualification Slot Would Help the U.S.
For the U.S. a new Olympic Qualification path would likely lead to changes in terms of budget and budgetary priorities. For the past 20 years or so funding from the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic Committee (USOPC) has been primarily tied to medal prospects. With the U.S. not even having realistic chances of qualifying for the Olympics this has resulted in minimal support from the USOPC. This could change with Olympic qualification suddenly being realistic and feasible as USA Team Handball could make a legitimate case that increased support in key areas could result in Olympic qualification.
In turn, it could also increase the quality and quantity of athletes pursuing handball in the U.S. Historically, one of the big enticements for athlete recruitment has been the possibility of being an Olympian some day. Indeed, at one time making a U.S. national team roster was tantamount to being an Olympian. Over time, however, as U.S. Olympic qualification prospects changed from likely to very unlikely this recruiting pitch became less effective as did the quantity and overall quality of the athletes recruited.
IOC Pressure and Potential European Backlash
It’s never been officially stated, but reportedly the IOC has expressed to the IHF its concerns about handball being too European. And, it has been rumored that this concern even included a warning about handball perhaps being taken off of the Olympic Programme. It’s hard to believe that handball would really be removed from the Olympics, but there is some validity to the underlying point of handball being too European. And, if a little IOC pressure has served as an impetus to put more focus on developing a U.S. handball market I sure won’t complain. And, I also wouldn’t complain about an Olympic slot being awarded to the NACHC as that would be a phenomenal development for the U.S. and the entire NACHC.
But, who would complain… and loudly? The European Handball nations; because in most instances it would result in a slot being taken away from a European side.
Current Olympic Qualification Slots
For reference, here is how the 12 Olympic slots are currently awarded for both the Men and Women:
Host Nation (1)
Reigning World Champion (1)
Europe (1)
Africa (1)
Asia (1)
Pan America (1)
Qualification Tournaments (6)
And, here is how the different continental federations have fared in the Olympic Qualification Tournaments since the current format was implemented in 2008.
2020 Olympic Qualification Tournaments
Men: Europe (5); Pan America (1)
Women: Europe (6)
2016 Olympic Qualification Tournaments
Men: Europe (5); Africa (1)
Women: Europe (6)
2012 Olympic Qualification Tournaments
Men: Europe (6)
Women: Europe (6)
2008 Olympic Qualification Tournaments
Men: Europe (6)
Women: Europe (5); Asia (1)
So, it hasn’t been a clean sweep for European nations, but it’s been close. If a slot were to be given to the NACHC it would likely remove a European team. A European team that would probably have made the quarterfinals and would have had a legitimate shot of medaling.
A Change in Time for 2024?
Because of the likely ramifications, I’m not very surprised that this hasn’t been publicly addressed by the IHF. It’s more often the sort of thing that’s discussed informally at coffee breaks and dinner parties. Not the sort of thing that gets promulgated until there’s an agreement in principle by the parties affected. Wiederer’s response in the interview is simply confirmation that this discussion has taken place and Europe is aware of it. Actually, likely been a party to the discussions since they would face the negative impacts.
However, if this change were to be made in time for the 2024 Olympics the clock is definitely ticking. Under the current qualification system the 2023 PANAM Games would again serve as qualification for the Olympics for the NACHC and SCAHC. That may be two years away, but qualification for the PANAM Games would start next summer with regional qualification in South, Central and North America. So, basically, just a year is available to change course and for the NACHC and SCAHC to come up with new separate qualification plans. This is doable, but action would be needed fairly quickly.
And, barring a change in time for 2024 one might wonder whether a change would be made for 2028. This is because the NACHC would already have a representative due to the U.S. hosting. Such a change would in fact result in 2 NACHC nations participating in the Olympics. Yes, given the sometimes glacial pace of change… this might end up being a change for the 2032 Olympics.
11th place Gyöngyös travels to take on 13th place Cegled. Gyongyos isn’t in danger of relegation, but would still like to get 2 points and break a 3 game losing streak.
HBL 2 (Germany)
VfL Lübeck-Schwartau vs Dormagen (-0.5) (Friday, 1930) CET): Link (VPN required; More info; What I use)
The regular season is over and Cannes is now playing in a relegation competition of 4 clubs with the last place club being relegated from D2F to N1F (2nd to 3rd level of play). Cannes is currently in 2nd place and a win would ensure that they don’t finish 4th. Cannes played Octevill sur Mer a few weeks ago and lost 32-23
6 Degrees of J.J. Hombrados. My Hombrados # is 2. What’s Yours?
This past weekend, as I do almost every weekend, I watched a variety of different handball matches featuring U.S. National Team players. One of those matches had circle runner, Drew Donlin, and his Spanish club team Leon taking on Guadalajara. And, in goal for Guadalajara was a blast from the past, Jose Javier Hombrados. I say a “blast from the past” in that he was playing back when I was playing, but I guess if you’re still playing… well, then you’re still the “present”.
And, at age 49, he’s still getting the job done in the Liga ASOBAL. His reaction speed is still pretty decent and as many matches as he’s played he’s got a ridiculous experience advantage over every player he’s up against. He read Drew Donlin pretty well on this wide open 6 meter opportunity. See how he leaves one side of the goal covered and one side wide open. Except it’s not so wide open because he’s moved out from the goal. He patiently waits for the shot and deftly stops it with his arm.
Side note 1: Laligasportstv and it’s streaming of the Liga ASOBAL is just awesome. Check it out and follow my twice weekly updates with the start times and direct links to matches.
Side note 2: If you want you can check out Hombrados yourself he plays live on Wednesday as Guadalajara takes on Cuenca at 2000 before the EHF CL Quarterfinals: Direct Video Link
6 Degrees of J.J. Hombrados
Kevin Bacon has been in a lot of movies and it’s been noted that just about any actor can be connected to him pretty quickly. As the 6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon Wikipedia explains with this example:
Ian McKellen
Ian McKellen was in X-Men: Days of Future Past (2014) with Michael Fassbender and James McAvoy
McAvoy and Fassbender were in X-Men: First Class (2011) with Kevin Bacon
Therefore, McAvoy and Fassbender have Bacon numbers of 1, and McKellen has a Bacon number of 2.
For Handball it works the same way. Here’s 1 example;
John Ryan
I played for the U.S. vs Sweden (Stefan Olsson, Robert Hedin, etc) at the 1993 World Championships
(Olsson, Hedin, etc) played for Sweden vs Spain (Hombrados) at the (I’m sure they played against him several times)
Olsson and Hedin have an Hombrados number of 1, I have an Hombrados number of 2
I suspect almost every pro or national team player for the last 40 years or so has a Hombrados number of 1 or 2. Amateurs all over the world have an Hombrados number of 3.
In some respects this is less remarkable than it might first appear. If one plays even just 1 match vs a big star it opens one up to a lot of possible connections because that big star has probably played a lot of matches vs a lot of teams. One could do this with a number of other players and get similar results. Kiril Lazarov and Nikola Karabatic would be two examples for sure.
However, what separates Hombrados is the length of his active career. He’s been playing professionally for 31 seasons. 31 seasons! Kiril Lazarov was just 10 years old when he started out. Think about it… Back in 1990 he probably played some matches against some players in their mid to late 30s. Somebody, say 37, who would now be 68 years old today. That senior citizen, via Hombrados, is now directly connected with 18 year old players just starting their careers in 2021. Some old guys on the couch in Spain are watching, surely chuckling to themselves and feeling a little bit younger with the comforting knowledge they can still say, “Yeah, I played against him” when they watch a match.
2 Generations, 3 Generations… Do I Hear 4?
Here’s another way of looking at it. There are a number of father-son handball player combos where the father and son have played against common players. Think Talant Dujshebaev and his sons, Alex and Daniel. Or Jackson Richardson and his son Melvyn. They’ve all played against or even with athletes like Lazarov or Karabatic. But, the length of Hombrados’s career pushes it to the possibility of 3 generations all playing against him. Yes, it wouldn’t surprise me if indeed it’s true, that some grandfathers in Spain can share personal experience tips on Hombrados with their grandsons. And, it one wants to stretch the generational math just a little bit… 4 generations (great grandfather, grandfather, father and son) could theoretically be possible.
If Hombrados keeps making saves like he did this past Saturday and if he wants too keep playing that just might happen in a few years.
Nicole Andersen, has been playing for the U.S. Women’s National Team since 2015. She has Danish and American citizenship and currently plays her club handball for AS Cannes Mandelieu in the French 2nd Division.
In Part 2 of our interview we first discuss Cannes Mandelieu’s current relegation battle and her adjustment to a new role as defensive specialist. We then look back at the U.S. Women’s National Team competitions in 2019 and look ahead to the 2021 North American & Caribbean Championship which will take place this August in Elgin, Illinois.
Cannes plays this Sunday at 1600 CET / 1000 US ET and the match will be available on their Facebook page. Follow Team Handball News on social media for regular updates on live streams for matches played by U.S. National Team players: TwitterFacebookInstagram
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The quarterfinals finish up on Wednesday and Thursday with 2nd leg matches. Below are the times for those matches along with the 1st leg scores. Remember, the aggregate score for both matches determine who advances. If the aggregate is zero, the next tiebreaker is away goals. And, the next tiebreaker after that is a penalty shootout to take place immediately after the match. (And, yes that has happened before: Link)
Barcelona (-9) vs Meshkov Brest (Thursday, 2045 CET)
Barcelona won the first match 33-29
Odds to Advance to the Final Four (Courtesy of Bet 365: Link)
Barcelona is an overwhelming favorite as they have a 4 goal aggregate lead and are an 8.5 goal favorite at home.
Aalborg is a solid favorite since they have a 5 goal aggregate lead and Flensburg is only a 3.5 goal favorite in Flensburg. Additionally, since the first leg in Aalborg was low scoring (26-21) it’s likely that Flensburg will need to win by 6.
Kiel is also favored to hang on to their 2 goal aggregate lead. They won 31-29 in Kiel and Paris is only a 0.5 goal favorite in Paris. It’s debatable as to whether the required Paris margin of victory will be 3 or 2 goals. That will depend on the pace of the game and whether Kiel is on track to score more than 29 goals
Veszprem – Nantes has Veszprem as a slight favorite to advance to the Final Four. Nantes has a 4 goal lead, but Veszprem is favored to win by 4.5 goals. Either 4 or 5 goals will suffice and that will depend on whether Nantes is on track to score 28 goals. (UPDATE: as of Wednesday the odd have shifted to make Nantes a slight favorite to advance: Link)
American Athletes in Action
K&H League (Hungary)
VKKFT Veszprém (-1.5) vs Gyöngyös (Monday, 1800 CET): Video Link
Elias Ellefsen á Skipagøtu is a real life handball Jimmy Chitwood (From the Movie: Hoosiers)
As someone who has a keen interest in both geography and handball it should come as no surprise that I’m a bit fascinated with the Faroe Islands and their recent handball success. Geography wise it’s a country so far off the beaten track that most people don’t even know it exists. In between Scotland and Iceland, the Faroe Islands have 52,000 citizens and similar to Greenland they are an autonomous territory of Denmark.
Handball wise they won the first two IHF Emerging Nations Championships in 2015 and 2017 and more recently they played several competitive matches against much larger nations in 2022 European Championship qualification, including a 27-26 win over the Czech Republic. Their most impressive accomplishment?: winning the European U17 Championship in 2019. And, it was not a fluke, they clearly were the best team at this tournament, beating the likes of Norway, Spain, Hungary, Belarus and Sweden.
Further Proof that Small Nations can Compete Effectively in Handball
In the past I’ve highlighted how Iceland with a small population (368,000) has been a pretty successful handball nation. They’ve yet to win a major title, but they are often in the running and they won the silver medal at the 2012 Olympic Games. And, now the Faroes Islands (1/6th the size of Iceland) are taking this concept of small nation handball success to even further extremes.
But, what does this remarkable success mean for a much larger nation like the U.S.? There are a couple of conclusions one might come to. One wrong; one right.
The Wrong Conclusion: If the tiny Faroe Islands can win with modest raw talent… Then the U.S. can accomplish even more with top notch raw talent
If one watches a bit of the Faroe Islands matches from European Championship qualification vs Russia or the Czech Republic it is absolutely striking to see the size disparity of the teams playing. From wing to wing, the Faroe Islands are giving up several inches in height and overall size in general. If you’ve played handball even just a little bit, you know that size isn’t everything. Plenty of smaller, quicker and craftier players have put bigger players in their place.
That being said… while size may not be everything, it’s still something. And, not even considering size (which can be easily seen) I think the Czechs and Russians, with the exception of Skipagotu, are also better in terms of raw talent. I don’t think there are any Faroe Islands athletes that would get much playing time if they were playing for the Czech Republic or Russia. Actually, there are probably only 1 or 2 players who would even make the Czech or Russian roster. That’s not a knock on the Faroe Islands handball team. No, on the contrary, it’s the ultimate compliment of their spirit and team play. The old saying that sometimes a “team” is more than the sum of it’s parts really applies here. Big time.
And, here’s where an American watching the Faroes Island’s success might come to a bad conclusion as to what it means for American handball. That train of thought goes something like this:
“Why look at what the Faroe Islands have accomplished with the limited talent they have to work with. Oh my God! We can easily find 16 better athletes in the vast U.S. and put together an even more competitive handball team. Bigger, quicker and stronger athletes. They are all over the place in the U.S. It doesn’t even matter if they’ve never played the game. We’ll just take athletes that don’t turn professional from other sports and assemble a team.”
Coming to this very wrong conclusion is somewhat understandable. Seriously, more than once during the last two matches, I said to myself, how are the Faroes doing it? But, the more you know about handball… the more you know it’s a very naive and arrogant perspective. One that totally doesn’t understand how hard it is to learn how to play handball at the highest level against professional athletes that have been playing the sport all their lives.
The Right Conclusion: The Faroes Island’s success against more gifted athletes shows what would likely happen with a “quick fix’ American team composed of great raw talent athletes. Perhaps we should instead focus on long term grass roots development.
No, paradoxically we shouldn’t be zeroing in on the raw athletic talent shortcomings of the Faroe Islands as much as we should be looking at their strong technical handball skills and team play. That train of thought goes something like this:
“Look at what the Faroe Islands have accomplished with modestly gifted athletes that have played the sport for several years. They even compete well against teams with significantly better athletes that have also been playing handball for several years. I wonder how the Faroe Islands would fare against a bunch of great American athletes that haven’t played handball for very long? Answer: The Faroe Islands would beat such a team… relatively easily.
I know this logic runs counter to American exceptionalism. And, if one were to contemplate the juxtaposition of the Faroe Islands squad facing off against a bunch of former NCAA Division 1 athletes who weren’t quite good enough to go pro in basketball, football or some other sport in a game of handball it’s hard to imagine such athletes getting schooled. The size disparity would be dramatic. The quickness and athleticism would also be clear. During warmups one would look at the two teams and think the Faroe Islands has no chance… but dollars to donuts they would school such a team of raw talent transfers.
Why wouldn’t they? After all, they’ve shown they can compete just fine against the Czech Republic and Russia. Pretty good athletes that already know how to play handball. And look closely… the raw athletic talent level of those Czech and Russian national teams is very comparable to the type of raw athletic talent one might see at a number of NCAA Division 1 basketball programs. Guys not headed to the NBA, but maybe to European pro leagues if they want to. Exactly the type of athletes the U.S. has recruited to varying degrees of success for the last 50 years or so.
So when we see the inevitable string of articles, podcast commentary and tweets this summer during the Olympics about how Lebron, Mahomes and others would easily win handball Gold keep in mind the following:
We’re never getting that level of athlete… we would instead have to settle for good, but lower level talent probably similar to the Czech and Russian teams.
The Czechs and Russians didn’t even come close to qualifying for the Olympics and they had some real trouble with the Faroe Islands.
It would probably take a couple of years for such a team to be even capable of beating the Faroe Islands.
Turning Raw Athletic Talent into Handball Players
I’m not saying it’s impossible to take athletes with great raw talent and turn them into handball players. It’s been done many times before… But, always at a significant cost over a long period of time. We can debate as to how much it will cost and how long it will take in today’s current handball landscape. A handball landscape that is way more professionalized today than it was during the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s.
We can and we should have that debate… Put some real dollar figures in terms of cost per athlete per year of specialized and focused training. And compare that cost to the costs to implement various grass roots programs. Maybe, after one runs the numbers it still makes sense to focus on a program similar to our residency programs of the past. Maybe it’s rebranded as more of a European style Academy effort. Maybe a very few, very high quality athletes are identified and sent quickly to Europe. Maybe, but let’s also consider the Faroe Islands and what they have accomplished with a radically different strategy.
Our Dual Citizen, Faroe Islands-like National Team
Also, needing to be factored in: A pretty decent talent pool of dual citizen American athletes which are sort of a Faroe Islands unto themselves. They’ve grown up playing the game, but they are dispersed all over Europe: USA 20 Man Roster for the 2021 WC
It would actually be pretty interesting to see this current U.S. team play the Faroe Islands. The U.S. would probably be around 5 goal underdogs, but we could beat them… probably not in Torshavn though.
Previous related commentaries
The “Iceland Strategy”: Focus a large percentage of USA Team Handball’s resources on one geographical location Part 1; Part 2
Expatica Americana: In recent years, Americans that first learned to play handball in another country have played an ever increasing role with U.S. national teams. This series takes a closer look at what can be expected from this key cohort. (Aug-Sep 2019)
Part 1: What is a handball American Expat and Philosophically, What is an American?: Link
Part 2: Understanding this 51st state and its handball demographics: Link
Part 3: Can a small, but determined handball nation be competitive against larger nations? Can they win a title?: Link
For more insight on the Faroes Islands and Portugal (another smallish nation making noise) check out this session from the Scottish Handball Association Conference: Link
Nicole Andersen, has been playing for the U.S. Women’s National Team since 2015. She has Danish and American citizenship and currently plays her club handball for AS Cannes Mandelieu in the French 2nd Division. In Part 1 of our interview we discuss how she started playing handball, became a member of the U.S. National Team and her experience this season playing during the pandemic.
The quarterfinals start on Wednesday and these teams will be playing 2 matches with the aggregate score for both matches deciding who will advance. The 1st leg matches are played at the lower ranked seeds home court so those teams will be looking to try and get a win by as many goals as possible to improve their chances in the 2nd legs next week. For sure, there is no such thing as “garbage time” at the end of these first leg matches. Every goal matters.
5th place Dormagen travels to 11th place Hamm-Westfalen.
Liga ASOBAL (Spain)
Leon (-2.5) vs Granollers (Wednesday, 1930 CET): Video Link**Postponed**
Drew Donlin plays defense and circle runner for Leon.
The season is winding down for Leon and they have 4 more matches remaining in the Liga ASOBAL. Currently in 5th place this match presents an opportunity to gain 2 points on 4th place Granollers.
The regular season is over and Cannes has now started “play downs” which are essentially a mini relegation competition of 4 clubs with the last place club being relegated from D2F to N1F (2nd to 3rd level of play. Cannes is currently tied with La Rochelle so this is a pretty big match for them.
