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Commentary: Inaugural USA Team Handball National Cup Quietly Limps Across the Finish Line

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(LA THC celebrates their recent National Championship)

This past weekend the Los Angeles Team Handball (LA THC) won the inaugural USA Team Handball National Cup competiton with two wins over ChicagoInter (37-28) (42-27) and a 33-33 draw vs the New York Athletic Club (NYAC). This gave LA THC an overall record of 9-1-1 to put them in 1st place for the final National Cup Standings. (Note: The USA National Cup is a not a Knockout Tournament Cup as is commonly played in Europe, but more akin to a National League, albeit with matches played over just three weekends) As the winner of the National Cup, LA THC will represent the USA at the North American & Caribbean Handball Confederation (NACHC) Club Championships which will, in turn, serve as the NACHC qualifier for the Club World Championships (formerly known as the Super Globe)

A Strangely Quiet Title on USA Team Handball Platforms

LA THC has certainly trumpeted its National Championship with multiple posts on social media platforms. 1 2 3 European handball sites like Handball-World and GoHandball have been intrigued with all the retired pros playing for LA THC and have reported on it as well. Meanwhile, USA Team Handball has been strangely quiet with, I think, no mention of LA THC winning the title on social media and no article on its website. In fact, I’m not 100% sure, but I don’t think there’s been any website posts regarding the National Cup all season.

If you start a brand new season long competition to determine a National Champion… One would think this would become a centerpiece for promotion with a dedicated section on the website with current standings, leading scorers and other statistics. Especially, when handball outlets around the world are suddenly taking interest in a USA domestic club competition. Instead… it’s almost like it’s being purposely hidden. Why?

Positive Elements of the National Cup Format

Before I try to answer that question, I’ll first address the National Cup itself. While it has been pilloried by some right from the start I actually like some elements of the competition. In particular, I’ve never liked having a one weekend, winner take all tournament (i.e. the U.S. Open National Championships) to determine a National Champion. Never liked it… but, understood why it was the practical solution for an amateur competition in a very large country. I also never liked the overly complicated points system for determining which clubs would compete in the elite division at Nationals. The National Cup essentially replaced one Open Nationals tournament with three Tournament like weekends in a quasi league format. And, with three tournaments it made it more expensive and theoretically impractical to fly in ringers, mercenaries to improve a club’s chances of winning a title. Overall it was a format far more likely to truly determine the top club in the U.S.

A Competition Plagued with Problems (Predictable and Unforeseen)

But, while there was some positive aspects to the competition it’s been been plagued with problems and challenges to include:

  • Lack of Support from Key Stakeholders (i.e. Top Clubs): While it’s relatively easy to come up with a new format for determining a National Champion getting consensus from all the top clubs in the U.S. is a far more challenging task. In particular, the last two national champions, the California Eagles (2024) and New York City (NYC) (2025) declined to participate. While one might simply write off the concerns of the Eagles as a manufactured team it’s pretty hard to do the same with perrenial contender, NYC, the largest club in the U.S. I do not know what coordination took place as the latest edition of the Competition Rulebook was developed, but there’s a fine art to ensuring all stakeholders are heard, compromised is reached and community buy-in is obtained. In short, dictating solutions is easy… building consensus is hard.
  • Flown in Players Bolstering Rosters to New Extremes: USA Clubs adding players who live nowhere near the location of the club to their rosters is nothing new. And, I have addressed this concern multiple times with increasing rancor. In theory, changing the format from one winner take all event tournament to three weekend tournaments should have made flying in players cost prohibited. But, the reality is that three clubs (LA THC, NYAC and ChicagoInter) to varying degrees, found the money and took roster boosting to new extremes. While this buzz was attention grabbing, particularly for foreign handball outlets, the overall look was concerning for Americans more focused on the development of stateside athletes.
  • Venue Shortcomings and an Unannounced Venue Change: I don’t think there were any issues with the first “tournament” in Chicago, but the second tournament in Denver was played on a narrow court. The third tournament was schedule to be played in conjunction with Army-West Point’s Annual Scott Pace Tournament, but instead it was quietly switched to the Velo Sports Center in Carson, CA (a suburb of Los Angeles). There was no announcement as to why the venue changed, but I’ve been told that West Point’s no stickum (resin) requirement and the lack of web streaming were the reasons behind this move. The Velo Sports Center was clearly a great venue, but the change meant that West Point couldn’t attend… It would have been pretty strange to not attend their own tournament. Coupled with the Denver Wolves not attending (purportedly due to injuries) this meant the final tournament had only 4 of the 6 participating clubs attending.
  • An Unnanounced Double Forfeit for Roster Violations: When LA THC played to a draw vs NYAC I had thougth they had won the overall title by virtue of their superior W-L-D record and that they needed that draw to win. According to multiple sources, however, the title had alreadly been decided due to roster violations by both NYAC and Chicago leading to them double forfeiting their first match. Further, I’ve been told that the Tournament Disciplinary Committee only made this ruling after both the USATH Handball Board President, Patrick Jalabert and CEO, Michael King, were removed from the Committee due to their conflict of interest. Jalabert has been the Chicago Inter President for years, but I’m not sure what Michael King’s conflict would be. He’s actually played for both NYAC and LA in the past, but I don’t think he’s ever been affiliated with Chicago.

Commentary: Bad Optics and a Competition with an Uncertain Future

Could this last incident be the reason why there has been no official USA Team Handball reporting on LA’s title? Well, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see a possible connection between the two. It was yet another case of “bad optics” for USA Team Handball’s Leadership team. But, was it so bad that world famous handball players celebrating a USA Championship had to be ignored?

With a competition limping to completion with a third of its teams absent and mired in controversy one wonders whether the National Cup will be a one and done experiment. Time will tell. Hopefully, there will be some lessons learned that can be evaluated by a reinvigorated Competition Committee. Perhaps a committee with all the top clubs empowered and committed to craft a more workable solution. One that can have a few Euros playing to provide some promotional benefits, but at the same time facilitate more state side Americans participating and growing the game.

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Influential Olympics Journalist: The the Next Winter Olympics will Likely Include Traditional Summer Sports and Handball is Under Consideration

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(Handball at the 2034 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City? No longer just wishful speculation. I actually think it will happen now.)

Duncan Mackay, who has been covering Olympic Sports for more than 30 years recently posted an article on his Zeus substack (subscription required) that planning is well underway to dramatically reshape the Winter Olympics Programme.

While there have been many reports and commentaries discussing the merits of moving some Summer Olympics indoor sports to the Winter Olympics they have typically been pieces along the lines of that it’s something being floated for discussion.

Mackay’s article, however, makes it seem very much like a done deal, particularly with this sentence:

The article highlights that some expensive winter sports like bobsled could be gone and then specifically mentions volleyball and handball as sports that could be added. It then highlights that IOC officials are discussing the possibility of offering some sports “the opportunity” to switch from Summer to the Winter Olympics. And, that the offer might very much be one those sports really don’t want to refuse. As in, the alternative will be to no longer be in the Olympics, period.

Commentary

As has been discussed before, handball switching to the Winter Olympics would be an epic game changer for the sport, especially in countries like the U.S. Every four years Curling gets a real boost in popularity and it doesn’t take much to imagine handball very quickly getting an even bigger boost. Whereas, in the bloated Summer Olympics it’s tougher for handball to break through with all the competition from the other more well known sports.

And, this reporting is really big news because it very much sounds like Summer Olympic sports are moving to the Winter Olympics. That the “good idea” is becoming reality and much quicker than anticipated. Reporter Duncan Mackay has been around quite awhile and he surely was talking to people on the inside; to officials that wanted to get this message out.

Would it shock me if the International Handball Federation (IHF) is given “the opportunity” to switch to the Winter Olympics? No, not at all. And, given that, I would argue that the IHF should actually go proactive. That the next time they meet with IHF officials they should make it clear that they would very much welcome the opportunity to do so.

There would be repercussions. In particular, the IHF and Euroean Handball Federation (EHF) would need to sort out what would happen with their January big money maker events. They currently alternate the Men’s World Championships and Men’s European Championships every January. One organization would lose a monetary stream. But, the overall benefits would be enormous so I’d like to think something could be worked out.

There are also some real positives to such a switch. With the current setup athletes have a window every four years with 3 big tourneys (European Championships, Olympics, World Championships) in a 13 month span. The switch would eliminate that and would ensure that athletes have every summer off to recuperate.

And, from a U.S. biased perspective I can already see Team USA taking the court at the 2034 Salt Lake City Winter Olympic Games. Instead of another Olympic boost for the sport necessitating beating both Argentina and Brazil at the PANAM Games to qualify we would have another hosted Olympics just six years out from Los Angeles.

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Treasure Coast Men’s National Development Team Makes Debut at Carolina Blue Cup

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(Carolina celebrates their victory over Treasure Coast: Link)

This past weekend the University of North Carolina (UNC) hosted it’s annual Carolina Blue Cup. The UNC alumni team, Carolina Blue, took the title with a 26-23 victory over Army’s 1st team, West Point- Black. Aaron Hamm had 8 goals for Carolina Blue and Owen Rodgers scored 6 for Army.

In the 3rd place match UNC’s 1st team, Carolina, defeated Army’s 2nd team, 26-23. The full results for the tournament are at the bottom of this post.

Treasure Coast Debut

But, perhaps the most interesting aspect of this annual tournament was the debut of a Men’s National Devolopment Team which was referred to as “Treasure Coast”. For the unitiated, the Treasure Coast is the regional name for the coastal area north of Ft Lauderdale, including the town of Fort Pierce, where Westwood Academy High School will serve as a training center for developing handball athletes. A handful of athletes are already currently training there and more may be identified at a tryout being held there this weekend. If you follow the USA Men’s National Handball Team social media pages (Instagram Facebook) you likely have seen some videos talking about the training taking place.

The team had a humbling debut against a field of 8 collegiate clubs and 4 at-large clubs. In Group play they narrowly defeated Air Force, 31-30 and easily defeated SUNY Cortland, 33-12, to win their Group. However in knockout play they lost to Carolina, 33-34 in the quarter finals and then tied a relatively new club team with just 9 players, Charlotte Flight, 32-32. Overall, they finished 7th in the field of 12 teams.

Video of the matches vs Air Force and Charlotte can be seen here:

  • Video: Treasure Coast vs Air Force: Link
  • Video: Treasure Coast vs Charlotte Flight: Link

Treasure Coast Roster (A Mix of Newcomers and Collegiate Veterans)

The Treasure Coast roster featured a lot of inexperienced newcomers to handball, but also included a core group that was actually more experienced than most of the teams participating in the tournament. In particular, I think the 3 West Point grads (Considine, Miller and Phillips) were each Collegiate National Championship MVPs. Pitt’s Greenstein spent the Fall semester in the Netherlands playing with a club team and Liden was on the Jr National Team. The rest of the roster included a few athletes with limited club handball experience and several who’ve only been playing a couple weeks. It’s a mixed group, but several have NCAA D1 experience in Football, Baseball or soccer.

Commentary: Closing the Gap to Collegiate Clubs and on to the National Team Level… not as Easy or Quick as one Might Think or Want it to be

Earlier this week, the Carolina Collegiate team buzzed me in the comments section of this post wondering why their upset over Treasure Coast didn’t merit a post. Here’s one such comment:

The Freshman in question is Nate Wolfe. He’s a lefty and has only been playing handball since September. Similarily, Jack Tierney, a junior at AF sliced and diced the Treasure Coast defense for 14 goals in their narrow defeat.

Without a doubt, it’s bad optics for a USA Team Handball National Development Team to lose or just narrowly defeat a collegiate club. This past week the USA Men’s National Team social media channels featured plenty of weight training posts… but, none on its debut in competition. Yeah, I’m guessing the social media channels would have looked a little different if Treasure Coast had won the tournament.

And, having seen the team’s participating and some of the team rosters on USA Team Handball’s Sport 80 platform before the tournament, I figured Treasure Coast had a good chance of taking the title. They had enough quality experienced players and were facing relatively low level clubs. It didn’t work out that way and I think the team’s lack of playing together was a significant factor. And, for sure, the newcomers, despite some strong athletic backgrounds still have a long way to go. Yes, college club athletes who have only been playing a year or two have a significant experience advantage even against D1 athletes. These newcomers will close the gap and eventually have no problem against lower level USA clubs, but, as was demonstrated this past weekend, it will take longer than one might think.

There are multiple reasons why it will take awhile.

  • A raw talent gap… but not so wide: First, some of these collegiate teams have athletes that aren’t much of a step down in raw talent from their D1 counterparts. On average, solid collegiate clubs like West Point, Carolina and Air Force have at least 1 or 2 such athletes on their team.
  • Experience: If the raw talent gap is manageable, handball experience will trump that superior raw talent
  • Learning to play handball takes time. Even to learn the basics to play competently against lower level teams it takes a while. And, then to learn the fine points of the game it takes even longer. Finally, to master those fine points… we’re talking years.

And, if you are now thinking, “Hmmm, I wonder then how long it will take newcomers to close the gap with the athletes on our current Men’s National Team?” The best team we’ve had since the mid 1980s… Well, then you are asking the right question.

And, if you know the answer to that question it then leads you to a basic conclusion, which can best be summed up as… What in the hell does USA Team Handball think it’s doing in Fort Pierce, Florida?

Blue Cup Tournament Results

  • Group A
    • Carolina 29 – 13 Georgia
    • Carolina 21 – 21 West Point Gold
    • West Point Gold 40 – 10 Georgia
  • Group B
    • Treasure Coast 31 – 30 Air Force
    • Treasure Coast 33 – 12 SUNY Cortland
    • Air Force 31 -15 SUNY Cortland
  • Group C
    • Carolina Blue 33 – 13 Virginia
    • Charlotte Flight 22 – 16 Virginia
    • Carolina Blue – Charlotte Flight
  • Group D
    • West Point Black 32 – 12 Tar Heels
    • West Point Black 23 – 22 NYAC
    • NYAC 23 – 9 Tar Heels
  • Quarterfinals
    • Carolina Blue 27 – NYAC 26
    • West Point Gold 32 – 29 Charlotte Flight
    • Treasure Coast 33 – 34 Carolina
    • West Point Black 41 – 29 Air Force
  • Semifinals
    • West Point Black 43 – 28 West Point Gold
    • Carolina Blue 23 – 18 Carolina
  • Finals
    • 3rd: Carolina 26 – 23 West Point Gold
    • 1st: Carolina Blue 24 – 23 West Point Black
  • 9-12 Semifinals
    • Tar Heels 23 – 22 SUNY Cortland
    • Georgia 32 – 30 Virginia
  • 9-12 Placing
    • 11th: Virginia 28 – 24 SUNY Cortland
    • 9th: Tar Heels 24 – 23 Georgia
  • 5-8 Consolation
    • NYAC 30 – 28 Air Force
    • Treasure Coast 32 – 32 Charlotte Flight

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Isabela Da Cruz Awarded Club Player of the Match in French D1 Match

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Last Wednesday, USA National Team athlete, Isabela Da Cruz played the last 15 minutes in OGC Nice‘s French 1st Division match vs St Amand and made the most of her opportunity, scoring 3 goals with active play on both offense and defense. She was clearly OGC Nice’s bright spot in a 23-32 defeat and deserving of the club player of match award. This video shows the three goals she scored and the entire match can be seen at this link. (queued up to the last 15 minutes) (Side note: St Amand’s Head Coach is former USA Women’s National Team Coach, Edina Borsos)

OGC Nice’s 1st team is currently in 5th place in the Butagaz Energy League and Da Cruz plays behind the team’s leading scorer, French International player Marie-Helene Sajak. Da Cruz who is 19 years old and turns 20 later this month gets most of her current playing time with OGC Nice’s 2nd team which plays in NF1, the 3rd level of French Women’s handball. For the 2nd team she has 35 goals in 10 matches for a 3.5 goals/game average. (See Below)

Commentary: Unfair Expectations, Now on a Path to being Met

I first heard of Da Cruz back in 2021 and the bio of a 15 year old American, 5’9″ (176 cm), left handed, Right Back who had already played some handball in Brazil seemed too good to be true. And, my expectations further climbed when she made the leap to move to France to attend a French Handball Academy in Dijon. To put things into perspective, this was a remarkably unprecedented move for a U.S. Handball player. We have hardly anyone this age even knowing what handball is, let alone playing the sport and being deemed worthy of attending a French Handball Academy.

When I started to see her play for U.S. Youth and Jr National Teams my expectation was for a European trained player to tear through inexeperienced North American and Caribbean Handball Confederation (NACHC) competition. So, I was disappointed to see a competent player, but one prone for mistakes and somewhat hesitant at times. Over the course of several competitions I saw improvement, but nothing to the level to match my expecations.

Fast forward to today and I’m rethinking those initial expecations and deeming them unfair. The trajectory of development is different for every player. And, looking back at my own skills development in different sports… I really should know better. Slow and steady development can lead to a moment when everything starts to come together and click.

Perhaps, one shouldn’t read too much into one 15 minute stretch in a match, but I now see a player where things are coming together. Isabela Da Cruz doesn’t have lightning 1v1 speed, but she’s starting to understand the game and is putting herself in position to score and/or be a threat to score so she can make that next pass for a great scoring opportunity. I’m not sure what the trajectory end point will be, but she’s just 19 years old… with plenty of time to further improve.

USA Handball Talk (Episode 54): John Ryan Finds Out: Why Port St Lucie?

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Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 40:14 — 40.1MB)

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | RSS

In a nod to Pablo Torre’s successful podcast I share some information I found regarding how Port St Lucie, Florida possibly got on USA Team Handball’s radar as a national team residency program location. Joining me to discuss is 1972 Olympian, 1976 Olympic Head Coach and former USA Team Handball Board President, Dennis Berkholtz.

Here are some links to topics and issues discussed in the podcast:

  • My father’s obituary: Link
  • Local Florida News report on the Army-Air Force match: Link
  • Article on Indian River State College and USA Diving: Link
  • Press Release on Port St Lucie Residency Program: Link
  • Questions I asked in 2013 after USA Team Handball announced the Auburn Residency Program: Link
  • Board Meeting Minutes which included a mention that “athlete experience” in Florida was a “heavy focus”: Link

Podcast Audio (mp3) is available at the top of the page; Podcast video (YouTube) is available below

If you have any suggestions for future topics that you would like us to consider please let us know on social media.

Don’t miss an episode:

  • Subscribe on YouTube: Link (Earliest Availability)
  • Subscribe to the  podcast in iTunes: Link
  • Follow the  Team Handball Handball News podcast on Spotify: Link
  • Or use this RSS Feed to sign up for the podcast in your favorite podcast aggregator: Link

And, be sure to check out the podcast archive with interviews and great  handball discussion going all the way back to 2006: Link

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2026 Men’s European Handball Championships (TV/Streaming, Information Links and Betting Odds)

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The 2026 EHF Men’s European Handball Championship will start this Thursday, 15 January and will conclude on Sunday, 1 Febuary. Here is some information on streaming, how to follow the tournament, and who the sports betting sites have favored to win the tournament and premliminary groups.

Streaming / TV

As usual, your options for watching the 2026 EHF Euro will vary depending on where you live. However, not as usual, the availability of ehfTV has significantly changed. And, I’ve got some good news and bad new for you. The good news is that ehfTV will be geoblocked in fewer nations. The bad news is that ehfTV is no longer free. That said, a subscription for every EHF Euro match is 11.99 Euros. (There also is an individual match option for 2.99 Euros/match) This is a very reasonable price for a dedicated fan like me and probably still low enough for a sizable percentage of casual fans, too. I think just about everyone is a bit annoyed with subscription fees for multiple services, but this is pretty good value.

Here’s a list of the nations that will have no matches or just some matches available on ehfTV

  • ehfTV Availailabilty (By Country) (Link)
    • No matches: Faroe Islands, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, Poland, France and Germany
    • Some matches: Spain and Switzerland
    • All matches: Rest of World

For nations without a TV contract your viewing options are pretty simple: Either pay for ehfTV or don’t watch the EHF Euros. In nations where there is a TV contract and ehfTV is available you’ll need to do a calculus of whether your in country TV viewing options will suffice. (i.e. you might only get some matches available on TV and you’ll need to decide whether you’ll want to pay for ehfTV to watch the other matches.) To see what broadcasters are showing a match check out the ehfTV TV Guide: Link

VPN and Piracy

Previously, I would add a note about using VPN to possibly get around geo-blocking, but this is less practical now. It might be possible to get access to a handful of matches, but I think even in countries like Germany you would then need to pay for a subscription to access the Dyn streaming service. And, of course, there are piracy options, but is it really worth it to watch a grainy feed on a shady site? The choice is yours, but 11.99 Euros seems like a way better deal to me.

USA Broadcaster Interest

My efforts to help facilitate some of the matches being shown on a U.S. TV or streaming channel came up short, but there was some good dialogue. As past inquiries have often resulted in no response whatsoever, this has me feeling a bit optimistic. And, that maybe, just maybe this will lead to future broadcasts for other competitions in the not too distant future.

How to Follow the Competition

  • Competition Wikipedia Page: Link (For simple, easy to find schedule, results and standings Wikipedia is the place to go)
  • EHF Competition Page: Link (Official Stats and match summaries)
  • Links to social media, The Spin Podcast and the official EHF App: Link
  • Uninformed Handball Hour Podcast: Link

Wagering Information

At a top level major handball tournaments are starting to feel a bit like the Liga ASOBAL with Denmark playing the role of Barcelona. And, with the exciting question be who will get 2nd place. Of course, that’s just what it “feels” like and Denmark actually hasn’t won the European Championship since 2012. So, we’ll see if the curse continues or whether Denmark is doubly motivated to win it again. For sure, the betting odds have them as heavy favorites at -300 or 1/3 odds or a 75% implied chance to win the tournament

Odds to Win the European Championship

Odds to win Group A, B and C

Odds to win Groups D, E and F

Odds to win Main Round Group I

Odd to win Main Round Group II

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Commentary: Our Germans are Better than your Danes

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(Handball Inside’s Instagram Story montage of Los Angeles Team Handball’s recent recruiting spree)

Our Germans are Better than their Germans

Back in the day, long before I became America’s #1 handball fan, I was a Flight Test Engineer at Edwards AFB in California. As such, it probably wouldn’t shock you that the 1983 movie, The Right Stuff, is one of my all time favorites. Parts of the film were actually filmed at the base and Chuck Yeager used to periodically show up at the Officer’s Club on Friday nights because he was a living legend and kind of owned the base. In one memorable scene, Senator (and later president) Lyndon Johnson is told that the Russians are ahead in the Space Race because of all the German rocket scientists working for them only to be told by Wernher Von Braun, that “our Germans are bettter than their Germans.” Which, indeed, ultimately was proven true in the end.

Yes, one of the lesser known tales, is that at the end of WW II, Germany actually manufactured a pretty capable rocket, the V-2, and, both the Soviet Union and the United States were very interested in aquiring the knowledge behind that technical development. And, thanks to Operation Paperclip, the U.S. did a better job and over 1,600 German scientists, engineers and technicians were resettled in the U.S. after the war. The U.S. has plenty of very capable people, but this German core helped us get the job done once we put our mind to it.

Our Germans are Better than your Danes

80 years later a different talent acquisition battle is taking place on American handball courts. This time two teams, the Los Angeles Team Handball Club (LA THC) and the New York Athletic Club (NYAC) have both “acquired” European handball players to bolster their prospects of winning the USA Team Handball National Cup. Initially, I thought that only LA THC was bolstering their roster with Viran Morros and Domogoj Srsen coming from Europe along with most of the upper echelon handball athletes (Drew Donlin, Ty Reed, and Akuro Zuwed) living in the U.S. joining the team. But, then NYAC suprised LA THC at the first weekend of competition in October. This is because NYAC had very quietly added some Danish Handballers to augment their roster. LA THC lacked backcourt scoring and NYAC beat them 28-24 and whined about losing to a “Danish team.” I found this to be amusingly hypocritical and posted this on Instagram.

In response to the upset LA THC went on a recruiting spree and barring Mikkel Hansen quietly coming out of retiriement for NYAC they should dominate play with the addition of these athletes this weekend:

  • Michell Gabriel Hildebrandt
  • Alexander Hermann
  • Maximilian Hermann
  • Dalibor Doder
  • Martin Johannes Strobel
  • Tobias Reichmann
  • Joscha Ritterbach
  • Vid Kavticnik

Yes, just like the Soviet Union launching Sputnik to wake up the U.S., NYAC’s win in the first weekend tournament has woken up LA THC. The match has yet to be played, but, on paper, their Germans (and Austrians, Swede and Slovenian) are better than NYAC’s Danes. Way better.

Some Positive Aspects of this Development

While, I can’t help but chuckle at this whole development there are some positive aspects of it to include:

  • Publicity (Rest of World): Handball publications in Europe have been covering these player acquisitions as if they are somehow similar to Simon Pytlick signing with Berlin. And, some social media posts have gotten a significant number of likes and comments about how cool it is. I’m not sure if it really moves the needle much, but it doesn’t hurt for the world handball community to contemplate the possibility of handball in the U.S. becoming bigger even if it’s very debatable if it’s actually occuring.
  • Publicity (USA): In theory, former professionals playing handball in the U.S. could trigger greater handball interest in the form of press coverage, fans showing up to watch matches or watching competition online. I haven’t seen any signs of that yet, but, in theory, it could happpen.
  • Better competitition for upper level handball players in the U.S.: The U.S. may not have a very robust talent pyramid composed of handball athletes in the U.S., but it does exist. And, if you are at the very top of that pyramid your opportunities to play against similar or higher level competition are few and far between. The importation of some high quality athletes to play against (even if it’s just three weekends) is a good deal for those handful of athletes at the tippy top.
  • Great learning experience for the West Point collegiate program: Of the six teams participating in the USA Team Handball National Cup only one team is primarily American with an average age under 30 and that team is Army (West Point). Perennially, the top collegiate program these athletes who’ve only been playing handball 1-4 years and an average age of ~21 have yet to win a match in the competition, but they undoubtedly are learning a great deal from the experience.

The Negative Aspects

  • Deceiving the world handball community: All of the publicity surrounding these developments are announced like it’s a European club signing an athlete. The reality is that these athletes are essentially flying to the U.S. for a couple of weekends to play handball for teams that are only sort of connected to the location in their team name. LA has a supporting cast of athletes who do live in LA, but many of the top players don’t live anywhere near there. I think the situation is even more stark with NYAC as I’m not sure if any of the athletes on the NYAC 1st team live in New York City. Further, this is a competition structure unlike anything in Europe as it is essentially recreational handball played in nondescript gyms with the only spectators being friends, family and players from the other teams. This is handball in the United States for the last 50 years.
  • Punishing clubs trying to do develop the “right way”: The result of this handball arms race is that it’s challenging for clubs to effectively compete with just local talent. No, in order to compete for a title a club will almost always need to add players at key positions. This has been going on for years… it’s just gotten more pronounced lately. And, while one might argue that the same thing happens with pro clubs in Europe bringing in foreign talent to bolster the roster that point neglects the reality is that those are professional clubs and when those clubs bring in talent… the talent moves to that city to practice with the team. Another complication is that bringing in talent like that for big tournaments can even have a reverse “West Point” effect in that up and coming players lose playing time and valuable learning opportunities to the more experienced temporary members of the club.
  • Significant lost opportunity costs: People can spend their time and money on whatever they want to. And, this includes roster additions to win a competition. I don’t know what arrangments have been made to secure the sevices of these players, but I’m guessing it might be just as simple at travel and lodging costs. That might not seem like much, but when you’re talking multiple flights from Europe and lodging those costs start to add up. With handball in America facing many challenges one doesn’t have to think very hard to come up with alternative ways those funds could be spent to develop the sport in the U.S. But, again that’s the choice of the clubs and to LA THC’s credit they donated $1,000 to a new club at the University of Georgia. In my opinion, that’s the best thing so far to come out of this venture and I hope more such donations are on the horizon, hopefully to some new collegiate clubs in the LA area.

Just Marketing Buzz?

As someone who’s been around the block a few times both in the business and handball world, I’ll be the first one to tell you that marketing is very important. You can have the very best product or plan, but if you can’t sell it… that’s a problem. However, the reverse can also be true with the marketing way out in front of a loosely defined concept. And, in the age of the internet with content creators and influencers creating “marketing buzz” can even morph into the primary objective. Can even be interpreted as the primary metric of success. I don’t think that’s entirely what’s happening here, but it’s a significant component.

Or… Something more Tangible?

Marketing buzz is often over-valued, but it can be the first step towards achieving something more tangible. Beyond the buzz, the primary tangible objectives appear to be winning the USA Team Handball National Cup, the North American Club Championships and to go to the Super Globe. This super charged LA THC team should be able to easy accomplish these objectives. Going to the Super Globe is “something” to shoot for, but it also is the most maligned handball tournament in the world. At this year’s edition I was puzzled by the dismal attendance for a match between Magdeburg and Veszprem why it was so paltry and Handball influencer, Rasmus Boysen provided a succint explanation.

No Upward Wrexham Path in the U.S.

Some social media posts have made references to “elevating handball” in the U.S. This is pretty vague and can be interpreted in a number of ways. I think a lot of Europeans envsion a plucky amateur club spending money to climb into the professional ranks like FC Wrexham has famously done and how handball clubs like Hamburg‘s rebirth in Germany or more recently Hoj Elite in Denmark have done.

Unfortunately, that’s not how things work in the U.S. For one thing there are no professional hanball clubs to compete against and even if there were U.S. sports don’t have promotion and relegation. LA THC, NYAC or any other club are not going to continue to grow and eventually become professional entities like the LA Lakers or the New York Knicks. About the best LA THC and other clubs could hope for is some entity like Pro Handball USA actually establishing a semi-pro league and then getting invited to join it. Maybe that will happen some day, but I don’t think it will happen anytime soon.

Other Elevation Options

It goes without saying that there are also other ways to “elevate” a club besides turning pseudo-professional. The GoFundMe that was established for LA THC identifies it’s mission as “to provide athletes of all ages—youth, juniors, men, and women—a place to learn, play, and improve their handball skills.” This sounds pretty good to me and it has raised over a $100,000. However, it would be super interesting to see a breakdown of how that $100K has been spent and what portion of it has gone towards travel and lodging for retired handball professionals (i.e. “men”) and what portion has gone towards youth, juniors and women. Why, I’ve even proposed to Lewis Howes that he shift the focus from his personal Olympic Dreams to a women’s program focus as it could truly be a game changer. Done right LA THC could even field around half of our 2028 Women’s Olympic Team.

The Necessary Hype Vehicle to Enable the Grudge Work of Development?

One last possibility for consideration is that the Men’s club team is simply the hype vehicle to enable real development. One can always post videos of kids running around throwing handballs, but that just doesn’t get anyone excited. Whereas bringing in former pros to win a title is easier to hype up and sell. And, then once the hype has been sold, the real behind the scenes grudge work that develops handball can take place in earnest. I guess I would be down with that.

I, for one, certainly don’t buy the hype, but some people (particularly in Europe) will and maybe some Americans will as well. Even Americans who are unfamiliar with handball. Maybe… No one has been able to really crack that code yet. Many have tried… All have failed. But, as with all such adventures I will continue to watch with interest.

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2025 IHF Women’s Handball World Championships (Streaming and Information Links)

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The 2025 IHF World Women’s Handball Championship will start this Wednesday, 26 November in Germany and the Netherlands and will conclude on Sunday, 14 December. Here is some information on streaming, how to follow the tournament, and who the sports betting sites have favored to win the tournament and premliminary groups.

Streaming / TV

Your options for watch the 2025 Handball World Championships will vary depending on where you live. Some nations will be able to watch all the matches on the IHF YouTube Channel while other nations will have all or some of the matches available on a TV Channel and/or streaming to which the rights have been sold. This IHF article outlines how to watch in each nation: Link

  • Nations without a TV Contract: IHF Competitions YouTube Channel: Link
  • USA: ESPN will be airing up to 4 matches each day on their ESPN+ platform which is accessible to anyone who subscribes to ESPN via Cable, Satellite or Streaming Service. (Important Note: This requires an ESPN+ subscription. You cannot watch the Handball WC with a traditional ESPN Subscription)

    Watch ESPN can be watched on your TV, laptop or phone. Personally, I watch it via my ESPN app on my Roku, but there are multiple options. Typically, the first time you go to watch something, you will be asked to verify your account so have your username and password ready.

    Matches are now being populated on the schedule page and can be found under the ESPN3 Channel. If past history is a guide ESPN will also add a handball logo and a 2025 WC logo to help find the matches. Additionally, matches will likely show up on the main page, but only a few minutes before the match starts.
    • ESPN Handball Schedule: Link
  • Canada: There is no TV network so all matches should be available on the IHF YouTube page: Link (Note: This makes Canada a good VPN choice)
  • VPN: Based on previous WCs, a Virtual Private Network (VPN) will likely provide access to matches that are not available on ESPN. For more information on how to use VPN check this article out: Link
  • Spam Sites: You’ve surely seen the multitude of social media postings inviting you to watch the match on their “free” service. (These folks are relentless with their spamming) Don’t even bother with these sites. They typically will ask you to download a video player on your computer. Trust me… you don’t want that app on your computer and in all likelihood they won’t even have the match. Go with the provider in your country or VPN.

How to Follow the Competition

  • Competition Wikipedia Page: Link (For simple, easy to find schedule, results and standings Wikipedia is the place to go)
  • IHF Competition Page: Link (Official Stats and match summaries)
  • Host Nations Official Site: Link
  • Handball Hour Competition Preview: Part 1 Part 2

Wagering Information

  • Draftkings World Championships Odds: Link
  • Bet365 World Championships Odds: Link
  • Futures Odds (Draftkings) (To win before the tournament start)

USA Handball Talk (Episode 53): John Ryan Finds Out: The Surprising Best Source of USATH News?

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Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 38:52 — 38.3MB)

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | RSS

Pablo Torre and his popular sports related podcast, Pablo Torre Finds Out have been on a burner for the past several months as he has investigated the NFL Players Union and the LA Clippers possibly circumnavigating the NBA salary cap.

In a nod to his successful podcast format I share some information I found regard what apparently is a new national team residency program quietly being organized in Port St Lucie, Florida. Yes, surprisingly (or not surprisingly) the best source of information in regards to what USA Team Handball is up to is not their website, social media channels, or Town Hall Meetings, but instead is a school board meeting in Florida.

Podcast Audio (mp3) is available at the top of the page; Podcast video (YouTube) is available below

Here are some links to topics and issues discussed in the podcast:

  • Audio of the USA Team Handball Town Hall held on 28 July, 2025 (queued up to my question regarding residency programs: Link
  • Video of the St Lucie School Board Meeting held on 28 October, 2025 (queued up to the discussion of the “Olympic Handball Team” coming to Port St Lucie): Link
  • August, 2013 Commentary expressing concerns with USA Team Handball starting a Residency Program at Auburn University: Link
  • Multiple commentaries from 2013-2016 highlighting problems and concerns with the Auburn Residency Program: Link (Scroll down the page)
  • Screenshot of USA Team Handball “news” page on 23 November 2025

If you have any suggestions for future topics that you would like us to consider please let us know on social media.

Don’t miss an episode:

  • Subscribe on YouTube: Link (Earliest Availability)
  • Subscribe to the  podcast in iTunes: Link
  • Follow the  Team Handball Handball News podcast on Spotify: Link
  • Or use this RSS Feed to sign up for the podcast in your favorite podcast aggregator: Link

And, be sure to check out the podcast archive with interviews and great  handball discussion going all the way back to 2006: Link

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Handball Bundesliga (HBL) Now Streamed for Free in the USA on For The Fans (FTF)

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The Handball Bundesliga (HBL) has reached an agreement with Next Level Sports Entertainment (NLSE) to stream one match a week on the For The Fans (FTF) platform. This match will typically be the English commentary match shown on the subscription service HBL-TV.

Tomorrow’s match features last year’s HBL Champion, Fuchse Berlin hosting record Champion, THW Kiel. Kiel is currently in 3rd place and Berlin is 4th place, having slipped earlier in season with 3 losses following a controversial coaching change, so this is a very important match for both teams. Throw off is at 12 Noon, ET and Paul Bray will be providing the commentary.

How To Watch FTF on TV

For The Fans (FTF) is a Free Ad Support TV (FAST) Channel which is available for viewing on several diffierent apps. Here is a list of the apps and here is a list of the channels. This setup might be a bit different from what your used to, but you may well have watched handball previously with a similar setup, either on beIN Sports Direct for last year’s World Championships or Peacock during the Paris Olympics.

To help clarify what you’ll need to do, keep in mind that “devices”, “apps” and “channels” are all different things.

  • Device: The little piece of equipment connected to your TV. Examples include a Roku, Amazon Fire Stick or ONN. Or, in some cases already built into the TV
  • App: Just like on a phone this is the software associated with an icon or brand. Examples include the Roku Channel, Distro TV, Xumo and Fanatiz (Important side note: The Roku Channel App can be installed on non-Roku devices like an Amazon Fire Stick)
  • Channel: There are hundreds of different channels that are availale on the different Apps. And, for handball watching fans wanting to see the HBL that channel is FTF Sports

I did a little experimenting with my TV which uses a Roku device. I was able to watch FTF on the Roku app (naturally, already installed on a Roku device) and on the Distro TV app (which needed to be installed). Once I was in the app it was then fairly easy to find the FTF Sports channel. I also noticed that since I checked out FTF Sports the apps made the channel easy to find in the “recently viewing section.

One final note: Everybody’s setup is a little different. My experiment might inform you, but you’ll still likely need to do your own setup and troubleshooting.

How to Watch FTF on a Laptop

I experimented with a couple of different options and these are the two links that worked for me:

  • Watch Dingo: Link
  • Therokuchannel.com: Link (You’ll need to login or setup an account)

How to Watch FTF on a Phone or Xbox

I very rarely watch handball on a phone and I suspect that anyone that does… doesn’t need or want any tips on how to do it from me. And, that’s doubly true for anyone with an Xbox.

Soft Launch

NLSE is still working some of the distribution kinks out with the transmission of the HBL stream. Keep that in mind if there are any hiccups with tomorrow’s broadcast.

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Where in the World is Smara, Morocco?

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Smara, Morocco might eclipse Nuuk, Greenland as the most Interesting location the U.S. has ever played handball.

The USA Sr Women are currently playing in the Green March Handball Tournament in Smara, Morocco for the next few days. And, since the United State changed it’s postion in 2020, I’ll go ahead and refer to Smara as part of Morocco instead of as the UN designated “non-self-governing territory” of Western Sahara.

The far southern portion of Morocco (Western Sahara) has a complicated and unique history. It was sometimes referred to as Africa’s last colony and I first became more aware of this unique situation when somewhat bizarrely I worked with someone who had been assigned to the UN Peacekeeping mission there in the early 1990s. I’m not sure how things work now, but back in the day the Air Force Personnel Center would put out bulletins seeking volunteers for Temporary Duty and my colleague signed up to spend 180 days in Western Sahara. His job mostly involved patrolling the sand berm area in dune buggies. Essentially the UN force was a buffer in between the Moroccans and the Polisario which doesn’t want to be governed by Morocco.

It’s a complicated history with the region once being a colony of Spain and then claimed by Morocco and Mauritania. The Green March for which the tournament is named refers to Morocco’s initial occupation of Western Sahara in 1975. For many years, the U.S. did not recognize Western Sahara as part of Morocco, but then in 2020 at the end of the first Trump administration the U.S. recognized it as integral part of Morocco in exchange for Morocco normalizing relations with Israel. For other nations, it’s still a sore spot. Algeria refused to play in the 2022 African Championships because one of the host cities was in Southern Morocco/Western Sahara. Because of this boycott the African Handball Federation moved the tournament Egypt and then to Egypt again in 2024 as a punishment to Algeria.

This history is mainly what makes Smara an interesting place, but it’s also far off the beaten path. I could be wrong, but the US Handball Women are probably be the first U.S. team of any sport to play in the Western Sahara portion of Morocco. (It might not even have been allowed prior to 2020.) This region is sparsley populated, although growing, as Morocco has encouraged settlement of the area. Smara is a town of just 57,000 people and is only 8 miles from the Berm, a 1,700 mile sand and stone wall which is the unofficial demarcation line separating Morocco from the Polisario. The town was also the site of a major battle between Morocco and the Polisario in 1979. I think that for the most part both sides stay in their respective area so it’s not like it’s a battle zone, but it sure is in the boonies.

For sure, it’s not a tourist destination. I would guess for every 1,000 tourists visiting Morocco only 10 make it to the Western Sahara and then only 1 of those 10 travels to Smara. Definitely way off the beaten path and that’s why I’m thinking it’s now the most interesting place USA Team Handball has ever travelled to.

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Commentary: New LA THC Coach Frank Carstens is Learning about Handball in the U.S.: He’s a Quick Study, but here’s some more Context for him and the Rest of the World

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German website, Handball-World recently posted an interview (Carstens explains US adventure – return option for Bundesliga) with new LA Team Handball head coach, Frank Carstens. I was struck by how much he seems to have already figured out about handball in the U.S. There are several quotes where he summed up things pretty accurately. That said, I think he’s in for some more education. As a public service for him and the rest of the world I’ll provide some additional context to further educate.

On helping handball in the USA: Carstens seems to have a good perspective on this. Like many in the handball world he understands the importance of growing the U.S. market, but he also notes that his involvement is perhaps “a small step in that direction.” He’s certainly right about that. Having an experienced coach a club handball team in the U.S. sounds cool, but it can only accomplish so much.

There are a few born and raised stateside Americans on the LA team who will benefit from his tutelage, but it’s mostly a team composed of expats which will in turn will play against mostly other expat heavy teams (the lone exception is the USA’s top collegiate team, West Point). These matches will also be played quietly with few spectators beyond the players on the other teams. There might not even be any seats to watch in some venues. Little, if any, press coverage. Essentially, just a bunch of people (mostly not American) who love handball getting together for some spirited competition. Assuming the team qualifies for the IHF Club Championships next year having a name coach will provide the team some additional credibility with the greater handball world, but will be meaningless back in the U.S., where maybe only around 500-1,000 or so people even know that such an event is taking place.

Unusual USA Structures: Carstens accurately describes the competition structure, but I don’t think the article fully captured one aspect. Teams will be playing four matches in a 48 hour window with one match on Friday afternoon/evening, two matches on Saturday and one match on Sunday. And, you thought that the workload of top athletes in Europe was too high! The reason for the high workload is due to the large size of the U.S. and the reality that cost wise it’s less practical for amateurs to fly across the country regularly to play only 1 or 2 matches. And, the new National Cup competition with three weekends of travel is certainly going to test that price point for some amatuers. Yes, most people are paying out of pocket for a plane ticket and lodging to attend the 3 competition weekends.

Stretching the Definition of a “Club”: I really appreciate Carstens flat out stating the following:

  • “players from all over America or even Europe come together for these qualifying tournaments, have a single joint training session beforehand, and then the games are played.”
  • “but the team has, of course, changed completely again. We’ll actually be meeting there and getting to know each other for the first time”
  • “I’m staying in Germany and only flying there for the tournaments. I’ll have one day there for preparation, and the rest are the days for the matches,”

And, why do I really appreciate it? Well, because club leaders in the U.S. typically like to down play or even hide these realities. To essentially mask the fact that the club wearing the shirts saying they are from somewhere… is only sort of connected with the location they say they are from. And, in doing so, also hide the accompanying reality that this “club” has very little in common with the typical club playing handball in Europe or other parts of the world. Yes, in most of the world clubs consist of athletes living in the city they represent and regularly practice together. It’s kind of silly that I have to state something so obvious, but I have to. And, it’s not the first time. Here are a few commentaries I’ve previously written on this topic.

  • Sorry, I Can’t Get Very Excited about Electic Mercenary Victories at the IHF Super Globe (Nov 2023): Link
  • Is it Still “The Battle for LA” if only Four Athletes Live anywhere Near Los Angeles? (Jul 2024): Link
  • IHF Club Championships: The More Things Change… the more they Stay the Same… for the Most Part (Sep 2024): Link

For the past few years the LA THC team rosters have been somewhat comical with the standard joke being “Who’s going to play for them at this tournament?” The roster for the current team, the team that played in the NACHC Club Championships in July and the USA National Championships in May are all significantly different. We’re not talking about a few players… but, wholesale changes.

We could get into a debate on whether any of this makes sense, but I’ll first emphasize that nobody is breaking any rules. The rules have changed over the years, but for the most part clubs were free to add any players they wanted regardless of where they lived. For this season, USA Team Handball restructured qualification to make it somewhat harder for clubs to form super teams. The restructured competition requires clubs to play in three weekend events instead of just one event. (previously the national championship weekend tournament). As, I’ll discuss later this hasn’t stoped LA, but I think it has impacted some of the other teams participating.

Club Ambitions: Coach Carstens states that LA THC wants “to become number 1 in the USA. The California Eagles have been the club that has reliably qualified for the Super Globe in recent years. Taking on this role is the goal. Even though the development work has taken place in a very short time, a few things have already emerged, and we naturally have the opportunity to further strengthen ourselves over the course of the season.”

With the California Eagles and last year’s national champions, NYC not even participating in this year’s competition, LA THC has clearly taken over the mantle of the #1 team. Looking at the rosters of the 6 teams particpating it’s hard to see them not winning the competition, most likely with a 12-0-0 record. Last season the California Eagles played only two matches (friendlies vs newcomers San Diego) all season and then assembled an all star team for the NACHC Championships in July and then another all star team (with several different players) for the IHF Club Championships this past September. Perhaps the Eagles will show up again at the 2026 NACHC Club Championships as the defending champions to battle LA THC. But, assessing who’s the better team will depend on their final rosters which, yes, could be significantly different.

An interesting side note: Social media influencer and podcaster Lewis Howes was on the Cal Eagles team that won the NACHC Club Championships in July, but was left off the final roster that went to Cairo. I’m thinking his becoming the new LA THC Club President might be related to that…

I’ve also read other articles and social media posts that characterize LA THC as an “ambitious” club and as an American I chuckle at this notion as such thinking minsconstrues how sports are organized in the U.S. I think Europeans (maybe, even some Americans) view the LA THC project as a sort of Wrexham football club story: The plucky little club investing in itself and becoming more professionalized. We don’t have promotion and relegation in this country and if (a really, really big if) handball ever became a professional sport in the U.S. it would be with entirely new franchises that will have nothing to do whatsoever with our current amateur teams. This has come to pass in multiple sports from soccer (MLS), rugby (MLR) to lacrosse (PLL). Even super obscure sports like Ultimate Frisbee (UFA). There really is no path upward.

Finances: Coach Carstens didn’t really address compensation directly, but states “that the whole thing isn’t really seen as a job, but more as a volunteer commitment.”

Handball in the U.S. is 100% amateur and I would be surprised if any clubs are paying salaries to their players and coaches. And, in most cases athletes and coaches are also paying all of their own travel expenses. I think this was the universally the case for many years, but when qualification for the IHF Club Championship became a reality, I think some clubs found the money to pay the travel expenses for a few key players. I say “found” because there is little, if any, revenue with amateur recreational handball in the U.S. Some people, however, for whatever reason, felt the prestige of their club attending the Super Globe was worth paying out of pocket to improve their chances. Not how I would spend my savings… but, it’s a free country.

With the new rules requiring teams to assemble three times for U.S. qualification and one more time for NACHC qualification I thought this would put a damper on such prestige spending. That clubs would be forced to be more traditional (location based) with perhaps a few additional players from other parts of the U.S. joining them, but traveling on their own dime. But, I’m thinking in the case of LA THC a GoFundMe has probably enabled them to afford paying travel costs for many of the top players in the U.S. and even some living in Europe. I could certainly be wrong… but, I’m guessing Coach Carstens and Virran Morros are happy to volunteer their time to play/coach a little handball and see the sights like a Chicago Bulls game, but they are less likely to pay the airfare and lodging costs to go along with that. And, I sure as hell don’t blame them for doing so. Would I prefer that LA THC spent the bulk of their finances on developing handball in LA or a Women’s team? Sure, but again, it’s a free country.

Return to Bundesliga: Coach Carsten states, “I have agreed to take on this task. But of course, it has also been agreed: As soon as I have the opportunity to play in the Bundesliga, that will of course take priority.” This should be pretty obvious to anyone as this is a part-time job with compensation probably limited to travel expenses and perhaps a small stipend.

I’ve also looked over the rosters of the six teams participating and have a message for any would be HBL clubs looking for a coaching replacement. If Coach Carstens can’t win the USA title you might want to think about looking elsewhere for your next coach…

USA Handball Talk (Episode 52): Portland Sasquatch’s Jan Vanderstraeten

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Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 7:19 — 2.5MB)

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Last month while visiting Oregon, I stopped by a Portland Sasquatch (FB IG) practice. Afterwards I had a short chat with Belgian native and club member, Jan Vanderstraeten. We discussed the challenge of developing handball in a big country and possible areas of focus to include more clubs in big cities and collegiate handball.

If you have any suggestions for future topics that you would like us to consider please let us know on social media.

Don’t miss an episode:

  • Subscribe on YouTube: Link (Earliest Availability)
  • Subscribe to the  podcast in iTunes: Link
  • Follow the  Team Handball Handball News podcast on Spotify: Link
  • Or use this RSS Feed to sign up for the podcast in your favorite podcast aggregator: Link

And, be sure to check out the podcast archive with interviews and great  handball discussion going all the way back to 2006: Link