USA Handball Talk (Episode 53): John Ryan Finds Out: The Surprising Best Source of USATH News?

Pablo Torre and his popular sports related podcast, Pablo Torre Finds Out have been on a burner for the past several months as he has investigated the NFL Players Union and the LA Clippers possibly circumnavigating the NBA salary cap.

In a nod to his successful podcast format I share some information I found regard what apparently is a new national team residency program quietly being organized in Port St Lucie, Florida. Yes, surprisingly (or not surprisingly) the best source of information in regards to what USA Team Handball is up to is not their website, social media channels, or Town Hall Meetings, but instead is a school board meeting in Florida.

Here are some links to topics and issues discussed in the podcast:

  • Audio of the USA Team Handball Town Hall held on 28 July, 2025 (queued up to my question regarding residency programs: Link
  • Video of the St Lucie School Board Meeting held on 28 October, 2025 (queued up to the discussion of the “Olympic Handball Team” coming to Port St Lucie): Link
  • August, 2013 Commentary expressing concerns with USA Team Handball starting a Residency Program at Auburn University: Link
  • Multiple commentaries from 2013-2016 highlighting problems and concerns with the Auburn Residency Program: Link (Scroll down the page)
  • Screenshot of USA Team Handball “news” page on 23 November 2025

Podcast Audio (mp3) is available at the top of the page; Podcast video (YouTube) is available below

If you have any suggestions for future topics that you would like us to consider please let us know on social media.


Don’t miss an episode:

  • Subscribe on YouTube: Link (Earliest Availability)
  • Subscribe to the  podcast in iTunes: Link
  • Follow the  Team Handball Handball News podcast on Spotify: Link
  • Or use this RSS Feed to sign up for the podcast in your favorite podcast aggregator: Link

And, be sure to check out the podcast archive with interviews and great  handball discussion going all the way back to 2006: Link

post

Commentary: New USA Coaches (Part 1): War Eagle and Extra Management Responsibility

It took awhile, but USA Team Handball now has two new head coaches. The new USA Men’s Head Coach and Program Director is Mark Ortega has now been on the job for two months and the new USA Women’s Head Coach and Program Director, Sarah Gascon had the interim title officially removed on 4 October.

For the most part, I’m satisfied with the process that was used to make these hires. I took serious issue with the poor timing that saw Edina Borsos abruptly fired and then replaced with Sarah Gascon via a convoluted process. A process that, in my opinion, cost the USA Women a wild card bid to participate in the upcoming 2025 World Championships. This time, as it should be, CEO Mike King took responsibility and fully “owns” both of these decisions. I’d also prefer to have simply kept Coach Robert Hedin in place to continue the run of success his Men’s team had, but we are where we are.

An Unneccessary Dig that’s also Lacking Context

But, while the process was better I’ve got some concern with the selections and I’m scratching my head once again. I’ll highlight this quote from CEO Mike King in the Women’s Coach announcement as I think it points to my first concern.

“With realism about what it will require to climb quickly out of a nearly six-year winless stretch—and the bar-dropping disservice to our athletes during that time—we have turned that page for good. By onboarding exceptional talent, we are taking seriously our collective charge: to prepare and position this program to compete at the highest level of international handball.”

I have multiple issues with the portion I’ve bold faced and italicized

  • 1) Even if the statement “bar-dropping disservice to our athletes” were entirely true it’s not appropriate to take a jab at previous management.  I guess President Trump has kind of made such tactics “cool” to some, though.
  • 2) If you get your job through a very unorthodox sequence of events you also don’t get to create a narrative of look at the bad hand I’ve been dealt.  Nope. The only justification for such unorthodox tactics is that things are so bad we’re going to fix things immediately.  Instead such tactics caused more problems and disruption… an even bigger hole to crawl out of.
  • 3) While the last 6 years (2019-2025) for our Women’s program were clearly the worst ever in terms of wins and losses I would assess that the previous 5 years (2013-2018) centered around a residency program at Auburn were the worst ever in terms of Return on Investment (ROI).  And, disservice to athletes?  Dozens of athletes made a leap of faith move to rural Alabama, and in return they weren’t compensated and even asked to pay for their own trips to represent their country. (1 2 3) Arguably, an even greater disservice.  Athletes are still paying for their own trips, but they can live where they want to.

First a Disclaimer…

I’ll elaborate more on #3, but I guess I should do a bit of disclaimer.  Every few months or so, someone new to the USA handball scene will do a deep dive on this website, talk to a few people and then with a bit of a puzzled reaction ask me, “Man… Why does everybody hate you?”  My self-serving answer is that I tend to do a pretty good job of telling people what they need to hear, not what they want to hear and nothing more emphatically brings that point home than the 5 year Auburn experiment.  I tried to stop it before it started and I was relentless in my criticism of it. 

Why so?  Because I saw multiple problems with a 1980s and 90s solution that just wouldn’t work in a radically changed handball world.  Quietly, behind the scenes, emails and conversations expressing concern were dismissed and ignored.  I was the asshole trying to stand in the way of progress.  Even years later after virtually everything I warned about happened… I’m still defined as that asshole. I’ve always thought that maybe some day, someone in a position of authority would step back and say, “Why do we hate this guy again? He seems to know quite a bit…”  But, alas, I’ve come to realize that’s never going to happen. Enough whining.  If you want more, go here.  

And, if you don’t want to read some things that you’re not going to like I suggest that you stop here and go scroll through some Everything is Awesome handball memes on Instagram.

War Eagle!.. Really?

USA Team Handball now has both a Men’s and Women’s Head Coach where a big portion of their handball resume is anchored by their 5 years in Auburn, Alabama. As, I earlier highlighted, I assess those 5 years as the worst ever in terms of ROI for USA Team Handball. And, if you’ve been around awhile and can remember a lot of things not going very well… that is really saying something. It was not just another failed effort… No. It was the very worst initiative we’ve ever had.

The evidence is overwhelming and I don’t think anything else that has been tried even comes close. A five year residency program, initially with 2 full time coaches (later reduced to just a men’s coach), but with results not much better than doing next to nothing. Neither the Men’s or Women’s team were able to secure a World Championship berth despite competing against peer nations with far less resources. And, in 2015 both the men’s and women’s team couldn’t even beat Canada and later Uruguay to qualify for the PANAM Games. A crushing defeat that suggested major changes… but instead the program just limped along for another 3 years before finally shutting down.

Why was such a program green lighted? Why did it hang around long after it’s due date had expired? Well programs have their own inertia and with the tight knit nature of our sport there were also friendships, even familial relationships at play. Such relationships are the heart and soul of our small community… but, they can and have been very detrimental when tough decisions should be made.

Why did the program fail so comprehensively? The short answer is dismal recruiting, due in part to the location of the program and it’s limited funding support. Neither the Men’s or Women’s program were able to successfully recruit higher level athletes. But, when you put something in place and hire coaches to run a program… well, they’re going to take what they can get. Residency programs for training elite athletes became residency programs for training best available athletes. A lot of time and energy was spent training athletes that were never going to get us to where we wanted to be.

My personal assessment: In 5 years time only 2 athletes (Jence Rhodes and Ty Reed) were identified that would have likely made an Olympic team in the 80s and 90s. And, both of those athletes were the offspring of USA Handball Olympians… most likely athletes that never would have showed up in Auburn without encouragement from their parents. There were some other athletes that would have been on the fringes of the national team. Hard workers, dedicated team players. I know exactly what such athletes look like… because I was once one of those athletes. A national team can maybe have a couple of John Ryan’s to round out the roster, but if your entire roster is composed of John Ryan’s?… You’re not going to ever get there.

So, what I’m saying here? Well, let’s first be clear on what I’m not saying:

  • If you were an athlete that was recruited to come on down to Auburn to chase an Olympic dream and found the program wasn’t quite you expected, but you worked hard and made great sacrifices you are not a failure. I have nothing but respect for you and your efforts.
  • If you were a coach trying to make things work as best you can. Organizing practices and trying to develop your players to be the best handball players they can be. Again, nothing but respect for your efforts as they relate to those clear cut coaching roles.

But, here is what I am saying:

  • If you were part of the planning, implementation and management of the Auburn Residency Program I’m highly critical of the role that you played. This doesn’t mean that you didn’t didn’t have good intentions and it certainly doesn’t mean you are a bad person. But, yeah, you were part of a big failure and there should be some accountability for that.
  • And… if you were a coach, but your role was expanded beyond the traditional coaching roles of conducting practices and making the decisions on the court in competitive matches. And, your role was expanded to more of a management role overseeing the program to include the recruiting of athletes… you were also very much part of a big failure and there should be some accountability for that.

So, from my perspective we’ve now hired a Men’s and Women’s Head Coach and Program Director with very strong ties to the biggest failure in the history of USA Team Handball. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that having Auburn on your resume should be the “kiss of death” but, as they say, “You’ve got some splaining to do…” Of course, that’s just my persective based on decades of observation… I’m not doing the hiring.

Someone with a shorter timeline might even possibly think that Auburn somehow represents the “good ol days.” Might even rationale that there is so much to learn from that experience. That we can take the good parts and lose the bad. There’s a kernel of truth to that. But, just a tiny kernel. There’s a reason why the assistant coaches of super bowl teams have multiple interviews for head coaching positions with other teams. And, there’s a reason why assistant coaches for 5-12 teams are scrambling to find any position, anywhere once their head coach is fired.

Also, of concern, CEO Mike King was one of the athletes convinced to move to Auburn. Are the tight bonds formed through that shared experience unduly influencing hiring decisions a few years later? And, we’re not just talking coach hiring decisions… but, the unorthodox “hiring” of the CEO in the first place. From someone who views the Auburn experiment as the greatest failure in the history of handball in this country… the Auburn takeover of USA Team Handball is mind boggling exasperating. Why, it’s almost as if it’s 2013 all over again. Strike up the band and War Eagle!

Expanded Responsibilities Beyond Just Coaching

And, so now we get to Issue # 2. You may not have not noticed, but somewhere between the job announcement/description being posted and the job hiring, USA Team Handball went from looking for coaches to hiring a Program Director and Head Coach for both the Men’s and Women’s programs. It may not be readily apparent to some, but adding Program Director to the job title is a significant expansion in terms of responsibility.

Back in 2013, I wrote an article discussing whether the U.S. needed full time coaches. Part of that analysis reviewed what other nations did and how the job of a U.S. coach might be somewhat different. I say might be now, because it all depends on what’s needed and desired in terms of the U.S. National Teams. For old timers and anyone who’s ever participated in a residency program it’s a full time job because the coaching is on a continuous basis, fairly similar to that of a full time club club coach. Not exactly the same as there was some unique player development work required for crossover athletes and then fewer matches were played, but it’s similar. More recently, the U.S. had part time coaches, Robert Hedin and Edina Borsos fulfilling a more European style part time role. And, then many of what might be considered “Program Director” functions were the responsibility of High Performance Manager, Krista Austin, until she departed in 2023 and then… maybe nobody was really doing that job?

We could debate how effective Krista Austin was at performing programmatic, big picture tasks, but there should be no debate that having no one really empowered to perform that role was very problematic. How big a problem it is can be masked if one already has the athletes needed to be competitive (i.e. the U.S. Men) and it can be painfully self evident if the team simply lacks the athletes needed and is woefully uncompetitive (i.e. the U.S. Women),

I’ll tackle the differing circumstances of the Men’s and Women’s programs in the next couple of commentaries. What I’ll tackle now is whether Head Coaches should even be dual hatted as Program Directors. My personal viewpoint is that in most cases dual hatting these roles is problematic for these reasons:

  • The skill set needed to be a good coach and the skill set needed to perform the management and planning of a program are significantly different. There is some overlap, but fundamentally coaching a singular team and managing a program are two different things. Some people can be very good at either role, but that’s the exception rather than the rule. And, we’re not talking about straightforward, well defined management functions… No, we’re talking about developing, implementing and directing a national team program that will work in the U.S. Something no one has ever really been successful at doing.
  • The timeline and horizon for coaches and program directors are different. Or, at least they should be. Any coach worth their salt is very focused on the here and now. How to win the next game or do better in the next tournament. A program director, however, has to think more long term. Inherently, this leads to conflict… or, it should lead to conflict if both the coach and director are doing their jobs properly. So, if someone is performing both roles inevitably they will have a conflict with themselves on some matter and will have to decide whether the coach or director role takes precedence. The closest analogy is the common practice of professional teams having a General Manager (GM) and Head Coach. The GM determines the roster and the head coach, coaches the roster he’s been given. They work together, but they stay in their lane and don’t do each other’s jobs. About the only time it worked in the NFL was with Bill Belichik… until it didn’t. And, then maybe having Tom Brady as QB was the only reason it ever worked.

For these reasons I would be very hesitant to dual hat these roles. Heck, I think it’s already causing problems in terms of what the priorities should be. Going further, I think it would have made more sense to hire a Program Director or a High Performance Manager first and then have that individual very involved in the coaching selection process.

Or, to put it another way: Don’t hire a program director/coach (basically a unicorn) to try and develop a program and coach a national team at the same time. Instead, hire a program director to develop a plan and then hire coaches that are well equipped to execute that plan.

In Part 2, I’ll take a closer look at the Women’s Program and the selection of Sarah Gascon as Program Director and Head Coach

USA Handball Talk (Episode 50): USA Team Handball Town Hall

On Monday, 28 July, USA Team Handball conducted an online Town Hall. I recorded the meeting and recorded almost the entire meeting. (There are a couple of gaps due to recording issues.) The YouTube version has 18 different segments identified of different people speaking and Q&A. Here are those 18 segments with a few notes for context:

  • 1) (0:00) USA Team Handball CEO, Mike King provided a summary of recent activities
  • 2) (13:00) Handball Futures Executive Director, Karen Rosolowski provided an updated on the Handball Futures effort
  • 3) (17:53) CEO discussion on future activities and plans
  • 4) (29:25) Q&A Question from John Ryan regarding regarding making the Strategic Plan available to the membership
    • Note: The recording is hard to understand towards the end due to feedback. I was a bit confused regarding the document being approved… but, still being fine tuned in terms of Key Performance Indicators (KPI). Generally speaking, my experience is that documents that are still being fine tuned… are not final
    • My thoughts on Strategic Plan development: Link
  • 5) Recording Gap
  • 6) (31:00) Q&A Question from former national team member, Mark Wright regarding the impact of Men’s Coach Robert Hedin’s departure and the plans for his replacement
    • Handball Woche article on Coach Hedin’s resignation: “Robert Hedin resigns as Men’s National Team Coach, but not for sporting reasons“: Link
    • USA Team Handball article on Coach Hedin: “Robert Hedin Steps Down as Men’s National Team Head Coach“: Link
  • 7) (35:25) Brief remarks from Board President, Patrick Jalabert and Board Member David Eldridge
  • 8) (36:24) Question from John Ryan as to whether the CEO will make the hiring decision for head coaches
    • The interim head coach for the Women’s National Team had been decided by a commitee: Link
  • 9) (37:05) Question from Cristofer Conner on how stateside Americans can be identified and developed for national team consideration
    • Note: U.S. Men’s and to a lesser extent, Women’s National Teams have been mostly comprised of Americans who learned and developed their handball skills in other countries:
      • Two handball championships in Sweden separated by 30 years: from 0% to 83% dual citizens: Does that matter“: Link
      • Expatica Americana“: A closer look at the dual citizens who play such an important role on U.S. national teams: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3
  • 10) (41:44) Question from John Ryan regarding plans for a stateside residency program
    • Note: I consider the decision to start a Residency Program at Auburn to be the biggest strategic mistake in the history of USA Team Handball. I guess my head is safe from exploding for the time being: Link
    • However, it does beg the question… If not a residency program, what is the plan going forward to field a competitive women’s team in 2028?
  • 11) (43:26) Question from John Ryan regarding how current overall revenue and sponsorship revenue compares to last year and pre-COVID years
    • Note: I mistakenly pulled the $116,000 figure from the Handball Futures presentation. CEO, Mike King did not provide specific dollar figures and spoke in broad terms on several different finanancial topics such as revenues, expenses and net equity. These topics, of course, are intertwined, but it’s hard to get a handle on the current financial state of the organization without looking at numbers.
    • My comment at the end regarding the merits of a 20% increase in sponsorship revenue relates to the reality that when the numbers are smaller, percentages can be deceptive in terms of what they say. More is better than less, but expectations in an Olympic Quadrennial cycle should be much higher. (for reference, check out the 75% increase in total revenue from 1993 to 1994 below)
    • In the near future I plan to provide an update to this financial status article from 2024. In simple terms, my projection of skyrocketing revenues has clearly not materialized yet.
  • 12) (50:58) Question from John Ryan regarding how the Board will decide to vote in the upcoming IHF President Election
    • Gerd Butzeck, the Managing Director for the Forum Club Handball (FCH) is challenging Dr Hassan Moustafa for the upcoming IHF President Election in December. Here’s a recent Handball-World interview: Link
    • My assessment: I found Board President, Patrick Jalabert’s response thoughtful and reassuring
  • 13) (52:39) Question from John Ryan regarding the loss of Forum Club Handball support for the development of USA athletes with top handball clubs in Europe
    • The Forum Club Handball has placed several USA athletes with top clubs in Europe and paid for those athlete’s compensation. This program provided those athletes with an opportunity to train in a quality environment at no cost to USA Team Handball. Due to concerns with USA Team Handball management changes the program was put on hold in November 2024: Link
    • My assessment: I was surprised with the CEO response that the previous coaching staff had indicated that the program was no longer a high priority. I reached out to Coach Hedin and his recollection did not match the CEO’s words. I would assess that the number of player pool candidates for an FCH Program opportunity will ebb and flow. Perhaps we were at a temporary low point in terms of current candidates available, but that’s about to change if it already hasn’t. I see several strong candidates: Gary Philips, Mark Miller and Simon Neumaier to name a few.
  • 14) (55:02) Question from John Ryan regarding the Interim Board President becoming the Permanent Board President
    • Note: I’m not sure what happened with the audio breaking up during Patrick Jalabert’s response
    • My assessment: It should be noted that the need to get the “board back to a place of stablity”… stems from the sequence of events that resulted in 4 independent board members resigning from the board
  • 15) (56:45) Question from Cristofer Conner regarding efforts to support youth development
    • My assessment: I wholeheartedly agree with the CEO comments regarding the need to develop sustainable youth development. One off events to introduce handball are nice, but unless there is a pathway for continued development the benefits of such events are limited.
  • 16) Recording Gap
  • 17) (1:01:10) Tracey Williams-Johnson (Handball Futures) request for club collaboration and support to new athlete development
  • 18) (1:04:10) John Ryan question regarding the roster composition of the USA clubs participating in the North American & Caribbean Handball Confederation (NACHC) Club Championships
    • Commentary regarding last year’s California Eagles roster: Link
    • Note: I am working on yet another commentary regarding this topic

If you have any suggestions for future topics that you would like us to consider please let us know on social media.


Don’t miss an episode:

  • Subscribe on YouTube: Link (Earliest Availability)
  • Subscribe to the  podcast in iTunes: Link
  • Follow the  Team Handball Handball News podcast on Spotify: Link
  • Or use this RSS Feed to sign up for the podcast in your favorite podcast aggregator: Link

And, be sure to check out the podcast archive with interviews and great  handball discussion going all the way back to 2006: Link

USA Handball Talk (Episode 48): Did a Questionable Hiring Process Result in a Lost Wild Card? (Part 2)

In 2018, the IHF Council awarded the USA Men and Women wild card spots for 2025 and 2027 World Championships. This award was made to help the USA teams prepare for the 2028 Olympics in Los Angeles. The award, however, was not 100% guaranteed and included a vague caveat “provided that the USA National Teams have reached a certain performance level” that could be invoked to pull back the award. The first warning that this caveat would be used came on 27 March 2025 when an IHF annoucement awarding a wild card for China quietly omitted any mention of a wild card for the U.S. and was later confirmed on 12 May 2025 when the IHF awarded Croatia the 2nd available wild card for the 2025 World Championships.

While the U.S. Women’s National Team performance has been pretty low for several years it’s my opinion that the IHF decision to not award a wild card to the U.S. was ultimately triggered by a very questionable process to fire and hire a new Women’s Head Coach quickly before the North American & Caribbean Handball Confederation (NACHC) Champions this past April.

Part 1 addressed the questionable timing and the use of a committee to select the coach. Part 2 addresses the selection criteria, the composition of the committee, the lack of transparency and the impact of not participating in the World Championship for the U.S. Women’s program.

Here are some links to what was discussed:

  • Coach Selection Process Procedures: Link
  • Handball Futures Coach Selection Announcement: Link
  • The “Sequence of Events” that resulted in four board member resignations, one board member being removed and reinstated and the unorthodox hiring and firing of a CEO: Link
  • 2025 Women’s World Championship Draw: Link

If you have any suggestions for future topics that you would like us to consider please let us know on social media.


Don’t miss an episode:

  • Subscribe on YouTube: Link (Earliest Availability)
  • Subscribe to the podcast in iTunes: Link
  • Follow the  Team Handball News podcast on Spotify: Link
  • Or use this RSS Feed to sign up for the podcast in your favorite podcast aggregator: Link
  • And, be sure to check out the podcast archive with interviews and great  handball discussion going all the way back to 2006: Link

USA Handball Talk (Episode 47): Did a Questionable Hiring Process Result in a Lost Wild Card? (Part 1)

In 2018, the IHF Council awarded the USA Men and Women wild card spots for 2025 and 2027 World Championships. This award was made to help the USA teams prepare for the 2028 Olympics in Los Angeles. The award, however, was not 100% guaranteed and included a vague caveat “provided that the USA National Teams have reached a certain performance level” that could be invoked to pull back the award. The first warning that this caveat would be used came on 27 March 2025 when an IHF annoucement awarding a wild card for China quietly omitted any mention of a wild card for the U.S. and was later confirmed on 12 May 2025 when the IHF awarded Croatia the 2nd available wild card for the 2025 World Championships.

While the U.S. Women’s National Team performance has been pretty low for several years it’s my opinion that the IHF decision to not award a wild card to the U.S. was ultimately triggered by a very questionable process to fire and hire a new Women’s Head Coach quickly before the North American & Caribbean Handball Confederation (NACHC) Champions this past April. This podcast (the 1st of 2 parts) breaks down how the hiring process unfolded and what I find questionable.

Here are some links to what was discussed:

  • Strategic Planning History
    • May 2013: Federation Planning: Right Idea, Flawed Execution: Time to Right the Ship: Link
    • August 2018: USA Team Handball Unveils it’s Strategic Plan: That a Really Good Step towards Bigger and Better Developments Link
    • October 2022: Strategic Planning Presentation to USA Team Handball Board of Directors: Link
  • 17 February 2025: USA Team Handball announcement seeking Sr and Jr Women’s Head Coach: Link
  • 17 February 2025: Coach Selection Process Procedures: Link
  • 5 March 2025: Coach Hiring Announcement: Link

If you have any suggestions for future topics that you would like us to consider please let us know on social media.


Don’t miss an episode:

  • Subscribe on YouTube: Link (Earliest Availability)
  • Subscribe to the podcast in iTunes: Link
  • Follow the  Team Handball News podcast on Spotify: Link
  • Or use this RSS Feed to sign up for the podcast in your favorite podcast aggregator: Link
  • And, be sure to check out the podcast archive with interviews and great  handball discussion going all the way back to 2006: Link

USA Handball Talk (Episode 42): A Board Meeting Revelation Explains a Pivotal and Puzzling Judicial Committee Decision

On 12 February, 2025, the USA Team Handball Board of Directors held their monthly meeting and I recorded the open public portion of the meeting. The meeting started out with a seemingly mundane discussion regarding a proposed new member, Margaret Rubin for the Nominating and Governance Committee.

However, I was agape to find out that Rubin, who also serves on the Judiciary Committee had a 7-8 year relationship with USA Team Handball CEO, Michael King. This is relevant because she had played a pivotal role in 3-2 Judiciary Committee decision that prevented the board from reviewing Board decisions that had taken place while Ebiye Udo-Udoma had been improperly removed from the Board. Which, of course, included the infamous 3-2 board decision to remove Martin Branick from the CEO position and immediately replace him with King. The entire sequence of events can be seen here: Link

This podcast focuses on the most recent revelation and some of the inherent problems with the way everthing went down this past summer. Yes, if your “means” to achieve your “ends” is crappy enough… you don’t get the ends you thought you were getting.

Watch on YouTube or listen/download the mp3 file at the top of the page.

If you have any suggestions for future topics that you would like us to consider please let us know on social media.


Don’t miss an episode:

  • Subscribe on YouTube: Link (Earliest Availability)
  • Subscribe to the  podcast in iTunes: Link
  • Follow the  Team Handball Handball News podcast on Spotify: Link
  • Or use this RSS Feed to sign up for the podcast in your favorite podcast aggregator: Link

And, be sure to check out the podcast archive with interviews and great  handball discussion going all the way back to 2006: Link